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#61 IncaWarrior

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 15:53

    The problem is players don't know what they want. If there aren't enough moderators, it's "out of control" and I need to find 10 more mods by tomorrow. On the other hand, if a post gets deleted (even if it's just someone spamming the forums), the entire mod team are now called Nazis.

    But it gets worse. Not only do mods have to be good at what they do, but they're held to an ideal perfect standard. That means that no one with any possible flaws can be picked as mod without a lot of backlash. Even the people here often complain about the current mods, even though in the scheme of things there is very little to complain about.

    But there's even another complication. All the complaints about the mods end up back to me. Kiyana can do everything that I can except modify the site, matchmaker, or IRC channel, and even the site has some things that she can make changes to. Yet, if someone finds one of her bans unfair, they don't talk to her about it, it goes straight to me and I'm expected to "keep them in check".

    The way people get to be part of the PopRe team is through contributions and trust. ThGabber created the first newworlds, I created most of the website, and alacn created the matchmaker. All significant contributions, and all trusting that PopRe will make fair use of them.

    New people are picked in similar fashion. Forum mods are picked out of people that are regulars in the forums and don't have a history of causing trouble. Mappack Checkers are picked out of people that work with maps already and know what to do. Matchmaker mods are asked to fill out a whole survey, then monitored for long periods of time. The biggest criteria we have for them are: lobby activity, uncontroversial, and already performing the actions of a mod. By that I mean they're helping players with problems, getting them setup for hosting, helping to calm down arguments, all the things a mod can do that don't require any extra abilities.

    DAroo was well on his path to becoming a part of the PopRe team. He made a script to autocomplete names for the leagues, and said he was going to make a new editor for levels. I had started to trust him and was giving him all the help I could with those. I found other developers interested, created a new forum specific for it, and even gave him some source files from the website that could help him. Unfortunately that trust was apparently misplaced as he abandoned that almost immediately.

    In short:
    - Players don't know what they want with mods
    - Mods are held to impossibly high standards
    - Anything mods do comes back to me
    - People become members of PopRe through contributions and trust

    #62 Fireproof

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 18:22

    Some posts I know are going to get deleted, like posts targeting the staff, but there's reason for it. If I can't explain my reasons privately with the staff, I take it publicly. I know what I want out of the staff and it's been the same thing for as long as I can remember and that's for the staff to take reasonable action against reasonable crimes. Banning me for trolling when discussing privately with you is reason enough to prevent private discussions as I will get banned for "Trolling" any given time. There's also the fact that you cannot tell PopRe staff what they're doing wrong privately or publicly. Really this is a lose - lose for all of us.

    That's the thing tho, mods don't even attempt to keep a set standard. Kiyana banned me for 5 days cuz I was trying to talk to her about her ignoring me. I contacted her via MSN and discussed this ban, which she realized was unjust and removed it. That's like Shakka muting me when arguing with TeratO, he later came back and apologized for it as he thought I was getting into their argument when I had requested a game by players. It just appears the staff do as they want (sometimes based on emotions). I dislike this as there is no set standard or reasoning behind these actions, or at least it appears this way.

    You're the one in charge of PopRe (site and client). Seeing as how Kiyana takes actions it would only make sense they discuss this problem with you as Kiyana will stand by her decision to an extent. You're suppose to listen and help Kiyana become better, if needed, but it appears nothing or very little is done. Bans like "trolling" in a private chat doesn't make you out to be reasonable as you have the block feature or simply ignore. Then at a later time you unblock to see if I have finished, problem solved and I'll only think of you as ignoring the problems (which I feel you do anyway).

    I disagree with helping calm down arguments. I feel a player should be allowed to express themselves in insults if they so choose. The reason for this is because everyone, including the staff, have done this time and time again. Maybe a player took a vacation from insulting people, bottled it up and released it all at once. Because this is an unofficial gaming lobby it is not a paid profession or job, not even you. If you think about it, having other MMs around could divide the community and give you more time to do other things. You might enjoy populous and giving features, but the pressure is taken off you. I only disagree with the staff's logic.

    Even though a player might be a trouble maker, why should that be a reason to discredit them and prevent them from contributing to PopRe? I supported Apnea for the facts that she helps alot, she is reasonable imo and because she is newer than other the other staff, better relate to the newer players as its more recent history for her as opposed to Kiyana or Wally. This isn't to discredit them to say they won't do as good of a job or Apnea. Having multiple viewpoints by various staff might make you think more about what you're doing and whether its right or not, but if everyone's viewpoint is identical, there's no need for change is there?

    Inca, trust isn't all that its cracked up to be. This is a place to house Populous, if you only choose players you can trust (share your same thoughts, view points, logic) then you don't achieve anything more than a 2nd, 3rd, even 4th IncaWarrior. You add another body to your staff, that's it. Having that said, anyone who seems to disagree with you is taken out of the equation, so what's left then?

    #63 TeratO

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 18:29

    As usual Inca creates his world of reasoning after he setup his conclusions. They way goes inverse. He first makes claims and then constructs the premises afterwards by deformation of the past until they fit to the claim and make it look true and like valid conclusions to him.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    The problem is players don't know what they want.
    That has reasons. It is a result, an effect and not a premise or cause.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    if a post gets deleted (even if it's just someone spamming the forums) the entire mod team are now called Nazis.
    That's an example for my entrance sentence. It is not about "a post gets deleted". If that was the only premise for the result to call Inca a nazi then it would indeed make no sense and would be bad. But "a post got deleted" is not the premise.

    And following you can see how he starts to build up a house on air based on that previous false conclusion which was made using a cut and false premise:

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    But it gets worse.
    Means: "worse than it is bad to compare someone with a nazi just because "a post got deleted". It would be indeed bad to call someone a nazi only because "a post got deleted". But he is not called a nazi only because "a post got deleted". That "bad" is concluded from that false constructed premise and therefore using it to create the conclusion "it is worse" for reasoning in the next paragraph is a fallacy that attempts to pretend to be valid while the logic chain actually already broke at the first false premise "because of a post got deleted".


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Not only do mods have to be good at what they do, but they're held to an ideal perfect standard.
    They are held to a normal standard which includes the standard that they have to meet the same standard that they request others to meet.

    Exaggeration for the attempt to suggest to the audience that the false conclusion that the users had too high and not legitimated requests would be valid without regard to the real requests and what a normal standard is.
    A fallacy based on false premise.


    IF the previous conclusion would be true then the following conclusion could be true too. But it is not and therefore the following one is false by reality check:

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    That means that no one with any possible flaws can be picked as mod without a lot of backlash.


    What we have seen here is a logical chain that could be proved as to be true formally - but only under the assumptions that the 2 premises: 1. "a post got deleted" and 2. "users request unrealistic standards" would be true.
    But 1. is false by reality check, Inca isn't compared to nazi because "a post got deleted" and 2. has no backup/reasoning/premise atall.


    A statement that simply ignores reality:

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Even the people here often complain about the current mods even though in the scheme of things there is very little to complain about.
    reality check: people complain a lot for several given reasons which are provided by evidence, reasoning and hard proofs like e.g. chatlogs to be valid reasons and therefore can be used as premises to conclude that "complaining" is justified.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    But there's even another complication. All the complaints about the mods end up back to me.
    What's so complicated with that? When one plays a one man show it is natural that he is the one responsible and made responsible.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Kiyana can do everything that I can except modify the site, matchmaker, or IRC channel, and even the site has some things that she can make changes to.
    lol. "everything, except, except, except". That construction doesn't make sense. Klityana is only 1 in the staff and probably only she has that "extended rights, except, except, ...".
    Do they act on same eye height like Inca? No. Do they have any real voice or vote? No.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Yet if someone finds one of her bans unfair, they don't talk to her about it, it goes straight to me and I'm expected to "keep them in check".
    False accusation used as premise for the therefore false conclusion "i am expected to keep them in check". People did and do talk to her and other mods. Inca can find one valid premise that could make his conclusion true 3 quotes above.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    The way people get to be part of the PopRe team is through contributions and trust.
    Hypocrisy, Inca first destroys the trust and then uses it as legitimation to judge the person as not trustworthy. Except he trust them to be suitable bow downers and footmen who adore and accept him as the superior leader.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    New people are picked in similar fashion.
    The fashion described above, yes.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Forum mods are picked out of people that ... don't have a history of causing trouble.
    Where "causing trouble" is defined by you as the opposite of the fashion i described "trusted to be bow downers adoring Inca to be the superior leader."
    Apart from that, "causing trouble" is not even a useful criteria for selection. It is highly possible that such people have high potential.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    Matchmaker mods are asked to fill out a whole survey then monitored for long periods of time.
    Monitored by a superior god and his footmen who only monitor and care if a new staff member could be a threat for their "reputation position".


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    The biggest criteria we have for them are: lobby activity, uncontroversial, and already performing the actions of a mod.
    Sounds good, but is not applied. Beyond other reasons because the fashion mentioned above has hiher priority. Hypocrisy.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    By that I mean ... helping to calm down arguments.
    As you can see e.g. with Klityana in the typo L chat log or e.g. in my "disability discrimination issue" e.g the chat logs with Ragnj trying to humilate for a spastic leg over 20 min or e.g. the riddle threads by me and all the other wisely and fair handled incidents.


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    DAroo was well on his path to becoming a part of the PopRe team.
    Do you mean that path to the church where the penitents chasten themselves with needled whips to proof them worthy to be admitted to paradise?


    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    In short:
    - Players don't know what they want with mods
    - Mods are held to impossibly high standards
    - Anything mods do comes back to me
    - People become members of PopRe through contributions and trust

    In short:
    - A result of Incas failure. + invalid generalization.
    - A falsely derived conclusion. That even used itself as reason. A Circulus Vituosis. A fallacy without regard to reality and users.
    - A natural, inevitable result coming with the current administrative structures.
    - People become footmen without voice and vote of PopRe through bowing down and trusted to adore and accept Inca as da superior god.

    Whose bread i eat, whose song i sing.

    #64 DAroo

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:04

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 15:53 , said:

    New people are picked in similar fashion. Forum mods are picked out of people that are regulars in the forums and don't have a history of causing trouble. Mappack Checkers are picked out of people that work with maps already and know what to do. Matchmaker mods are asked to fill out a whole survey, then monitored for long periods of time. The biggest criteria we have for them are: lobby activity, uncontroversial, and already performing the actions of a mod. By that I mean they're helping players with problems, getting them setup for hosting, helping to calm down arguments, all the things a mod can do that don't require any extra abilities.

    DAroo was well on his path to becoming a part of the PopRe team. He made a script to autocomplete names for the leagues, and said he was going to make a new editor for levels. I had started to trust him and was giving him all the help I could with those. I found other developers interested, created a new forum specific for it, and even gave him some source files from the website that could help him. Unfortunately that trust was apparently misplaced as he abandoned that almost immediately.

    In short:
    - Players don't know what they want with mods
    - Mods are held to impossibly high standards
    - Anything mods do comes back to me
    - People become members of PopRe through contributions and trust

    Lets make things clear about my and popre relations in the past. Community deserved to know how situation is far away from perspective you've just written here. My perspective is like the following:

    I joined popre at the beginning of 2006. I've been always an active player and and after some time I also tracked popre forums. Popre admins never had any problems with me, no doubts, perfect player in one word (hard to believe? it's possible, ask others about me ;p). I joined respectful populous clan, Asgard, at May 2008. I was helping players both in the popre forums and matchmaker lobby. I offered help in moderating forum after I noticed it lacks in good moderation (help refused). I made new, populous website with many tips to help new and already quite experienced players. I made new website for Asgard clan (layout is based on Hundredth's work).

    Now the story with me and popre begins:
    20.09.2008 I wanted to translate matchmaker [ignored]
    18.11.2008 I've written couple of suggestions and bugs I found on the site; I also offered new layout for the website made by the professional graphic for popre site [ignored]
    7.04.2009 I suggested more open and transparent for community development of programs [ignored]
    8.07.2009 I pointed that moderation on the forum doesn't work like it should work, it was also noticed by several other members of the community including many Asgard members, Fredrick, TeratO and many more [ignored]
    9.07.2009 I was pretty frustrated at that time so I've written manifesto in which I pointed all, major problems in the popre; did they ask me for help or ask how to fix some problems? No. [ignored]

    But I didn't give up! I talked to Asgard members, populous veterans and leaders of other respectful populous clans about future of the community. Most of them suggested me to try once again with popre before working on separate project. So I did - I started talking directly to IncaWarrior about future of populous community:

    18.07.2009 First e-mail to IncaWarrior, it was like:
    "i still see possibilities to improve popre service and ways to expand populous community. I've got energy and time enought to help you, developers, leaders and project friends, in some technical aspects. What about let me help with it?"

    18.07.2009 - 21.08.2009
    I exchanged several e-mails with IncaWarrior, I offered directly help with:
    1) matchmaker - "I can track updates in the code and report possible mistakes, bugs."
    2) website
    3) translations
    4) new map editor
    5) And anything other I didn't mention and what could be useful for popre developers, I started studying computer science at that time - "I'm studing IT at the AGH university of science and technology in Cracow and becouse of the vacation i've got quite large amount of the time, which i'd like spend supporting your project."

    What was the feedback of the IncaWarrior? Sure, he replied in very warm way, he gave me one php file, used to generate map preview from populous map files and made one thread on the popre forum about my new editor project. What next? Nothing. I prepared autosuggestion JavaScript program and then I felt he ignored me again.

    11.09.2009 (two months after first e-mail) - I asked him directly about website to make sure that he ignored my help and all work I wanted to do:
    "(22:19:21) DAroo: hmm i 've got proposition
    (22:19:29) DAroo: let me help with php
    (22:19:53) DAroo: i can take overview what can be done
    (22:20:15) DAroo: it will be also a nice breaj from the c++ programming
    (22:21:04) IncaWarrior: well what would you like to see? There's the forum (phpbb) then specialized pages..."


    He ignored my direct proposition of fixing bugs in the website. In that time (according to my previous experience with popre) I was sure that my work and effort have been ignored once again so round 10.2009/11.2009 I started planning alternative service to popre. Can you notice any analogies to TeratO's history?

    Conclusion. Inca, please stop talking bullshits that popre is shinning star because, although I'm very peaceful guy, it makes even me nervous.
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    #65 IncaWarrior

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:47

    DAroo:

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    20.09.2008 I wanted to translate matchmaker (ignored)
    That was when alacn was in charge of that.

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    18.11.2008 I've written couple of suggestions and bugs I found on the site; I also offered new layout for the website made by the professional graphic for popre site (ignored)
    Most of those were done. Creating an entirely new site was a bit dramatic of a change though.

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    7.04.2009 I suggested more open and transparent for community development of programs (ignored)
    I agreed - but what you really meant was you wanted the source to the mm. Later it became clear you didn't even want that, you wanted to create a new matchmaker in a different language.

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    8.07.2009 I pointed that moderation on the forum doesn't work like it should work, it was also noticed by several other members of the community including many Asgard members, Fredrick, TeratO and many more (ignored)
    Complaints about moderation are common. Quality comments like "There is no good moderation here" do no help.

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    9.07.2009 I was pretty frustrated at that time so I've written manifesto in which I pointed all, major problems in the popre; did they ask me for help or ask how to fix some problems? No. (ignored)
    Did you read the rest of the thread? I answered it.

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    What was the feedback of the IncaWarrior? Sure, he replied in very warm way, he gave me one php file, used to generate map preview from populous map files and made one thread on the popre forum about my new editor project. What next? Nothing. I prepared autosuggestion JavaScript program and then I felt he ignored me again.
    Here's how I see it: You had a plan to work on a solid project - a new map editor. I did all I could to help you. You abandoned the project. Was I suppose to check in on you daily to see what progress had been made?

    DAroo, on 28 February 2011 - 19:04 , said:

    11.09.2009 (two months after first e-mail) - I asked him directly about website to make sure that he ignored my help and all work I wanted to do:
    "(22:19:21) DAroo: hmm i 've got proposition
    (22:19:29) DAroo: let me help with php
    (22:19:53) DAroo: i can take overview what can be done
    (22:20:15) DAroo: it will be also a nice breaj from the c++ programming
    (22:21:04) IncaWarrior: well what would you like to see? There's the forum (phpbb) then specialized pages..."

    I don't remember the conversation, but I'm curious where it went. Looks like I was just about to let you work on stuff.

    It goes back to trust at that point. I wasn't quite ready to trust you with the entire website and database, so I was doing as much as I could do before that. Should I have let you?

    Flame:
    It's true that it's difficult to criticize the PopRe staff. Things are a bit better now, but the issue is when a thread comes up that's about the staff it's usually:
    - A player is banned and someone is sticking up for them
    In this case, it's rare for the player to have contacted the admins them self. Usually, it's a fake account by that person complaining.
    Sometimes it's someone posting based on false information "LOL why is ttamylno banned for changing names". Sometimes it's just a pointless thread looking to bring attention to someone being banned "LOL shao is banned for posting porn" or "OMG I only made 3 accounts why am I banned?". In rare cases the thread is allowed, but usually it's someone that should be taken up directly with an admin by the person banned.

    - "$MOD sucks" threads
    These are threads that have already started out on a bad foot. Same as how you can't make a thread saying any other player sucks, you can't just fling abuse at a mod.

    - General discontent threads
    While this may seem like a good idea, without a specific reason, they just end up with people voicing any complaint without promoting any progress or good ideas. A thread with a specific complaint "Mods mute people too long for spamming" or "Posts on cats are deleted" would be a reasonable option as they are less likely to go off topic.

    Not to say you won't find examples of the above threads, but it's usually based on experience with those that new ones are treated harshly.

    #66 DAroo

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 20:30

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 19:47 , said:

    That was when alacn was in charge of that.
    Alacn practically was unreachable in 2008. I can blame him instead of you if you really believe that it was his fault.

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 19:47 , said:

    Complaints about moderation are common. Quality comments like "There is no good moderation here" do no help.
    Yea, complains are often that's why I complained after you refused my help in moderating. I couldn't fix it by myself so what should I? I could only write some instructions for existing moderators as I did.

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 19:47 , said:

    Did you read the rest of the thread? I answered it.
    Yea, you answered that you didn't see that thread about bugs on the website. Thread was written in 18.11.2008 and today (28.02.2011) you can still see that ugly website with emots: http://img121.images.../popreemots.png. If you gave me a chance I would fix it immediately.

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 19:47 , said:

    I don't remember the conversation, but I'm curious where it went. Looks like I was just about to let you work on stuff.
    It was our conversation via gmail instant messenger.
    "(22:47:10) DAroo: hmm so you don't need any help with php right ?
    (22:47:40) IncaWarrior: well I don't know what you could do really
    "

    IncaWarrior, on 28 February 2011 - 19:47 , said:

    Should I have let you?
    You should look for a talented guys and ask them for help. Not like members who are around for 2 years and study computer science are begging you for letting them help you. Because of your ignorance popre is no longer being in the centre of future populous development. Who made 3D map preview? Onkar. Who found out that he is very talented guy and asked him for help? You? Who was giving hints to Alex so he did great and pretty difficult work of hacking populous? You? No. Everything started here and leaked to popre only due to better experience of populous players who are gathered around popre right now. I'm still angry on you that I have to do everything outside popre and I'm sure others are angry about it too.

    It doesn't need to go this way, why you have to be so stubborn? I still have a hope you finally open your eyes until it's too late. Let's build a shop in the middle of popre and popms. It's always easier when more people are involved and it would be less confusing for players in final result.
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    #67 IncaWarrior

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 20:38

    Quote

    You should look for a talented guys and ask them for help.

    Good plan! Then I could give them help and resources. And make a forum for their projects and find help.

    OH WAIT! I tried that but someone decided to work alone rather than with PopRe.

    #68 DAroo

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 20:40

    ehh :D I tried everything I could, history will judge our decisions.

    #69 Nefarius

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:37

    Okay, so you guys are criticizing Inca in many aspects of how he is leading pop:re.
    In some points you may be right, but I don't wanna put myself on a "certain" side, since I doubt my insight into the whole situation is well.

    You criticize him; but what about giving some constructive suggestions on how to make better? There are surely flaws which definitely should be fixed in order to make pop:re a better place, but that won't be done by simple criticism.

    Both "sides" (if I'm allowed to call them like that) are very callous and insist on their point of view. But this conflict is most likely lasting another 10 years, if not compromises are made.. by BOTH sides.

    To Inca: DAroo has seemingly suggested some very constructive stuff in the past, which you partially have been trying to realize and partially didn't realize because you didn't find it was constructive enough. Why don't you take a look at these suggestion threads again and rethink about them? Also, I'm sure some people here and the most staff members are ready to discuss with you about those.

    DAroo is blatantly quite angry, since most of his dedication he put into the suggestions didn't really get appreciated by you. There are not a lot of people with a that great willingness to help.


    To the mod problem: I might have an idea
    Mods are sometimes criticized for the actions they done. If they're legitimate or not, is anyone's guess. My suggestion: What about elaborating some kind of "guideline" moderators can orient themselves at? I'm sure that is not a too hard thing to be done, and I'm convinced it can avoid trouble about users complaining about mod's actions in the future.

    I for myself dislike it a lot when a thread is just closed "because it went offtopic". Why for example isn't the offtopic deleted in the first place? By closing the thread you actually "punish" the thread creator, who wanted to discuss something properly. Actually, that should go for the people who went off-topic.
    But well, that is just one example.

    I can also imagine, that if something like a guideline is done, we can implement it into the COC in some way, so the users (which have agreed to read that) shouldn't be surprised if they're getting punished for something they were supposed to agree to. What would you think?


    @ DAroo and the others: I can understand you're disappointed to a certain extinct, but that attitude won't help. In fact, it's rather pointless. I'm sure Inca is able to admit that he has done mistakes in the past (nobody is perfect), and hence able to apology to you. On the other side you should get less snapped and ready to corporate with him, which he seems to be ready to. Both sides need to find compromises. If one "side" is too convinced of itself, there'll never be a joint consent.

    Also, you're all able to point out all the bad things Inca has done. But what about the good things? He's been putting a lot of work into this service, been trying to keep it updated and so on. If you just keep criticizing him he may lose the interest at one point.

    In short: Both of you, get rid of your persistent attitude and admit the mistakes you made. Then find together to a compromise and based on that, try to solve the mistakes.

    #70 c3_TN

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 23:18

    Nice post by Nef.

    Expanding on it a little, perhaps the best course of action is some sort of ombudsman, that can take complaints and serve as a go between those who wish to express their opinions and the moderators. Of course, you'd have to find someone that's respected by the community, including Flame and Co., but there are probably candidates for that.

    If there was some sort of ombudsman, they could formulate suggestions and ideas for Inca, bringing the suggestions of individuals who could remain annonymous if they prefer to do so.

    #71 IncaWarrior

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 23:20

    Matchmaker mods have a set of guidelines they are suppose to follow. Some guidelines for the forum mods could also be helpful.

    I'll put it out here since there seem to be people interested: I'm working on a new website design, does anyone want to help with it? If so, what skills do you have that could be useful?

    #72 Nefarius

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 23:40

    Quote

    Expanding on it a little, perhaps the best course of action is some sort of ombudsman, that can take complaints and serve as a go between those who wish to express their opinions and the moderators. Of course, you'd have to find someone that's respected by the community, including Flame and Co., but there are probably candidates for that.

    If there was some sort of ombudsman, they could formulate suggestions and ideas for Inca, bringing the suggestions of individuals who could remain annonymous if they prefer to do so.

    Interesting idea. That ombudsman should be able to remain objective, since his tasks would only be to transmit the message in some way, without any partiality. You should pick someone for that job who people actually trust to talk to.

    What'd be the best way to find the person? We could ask around for people which're interested. There should be a couple of persons. Once we gathered several potential candidates, we should create something like a poll to let the community decide. Maybe the poll thread should include someone like an application which includes the reasons why he/she wants to be in that position and what qualities he/she brings.

    There's one thing I disagree on tho: Why should the ombudsman only formulate suggestions for Inca only? I mean, people are for sure gonna be unsatisfied again since they can accuse Inca of working too one sided (which is no wonder, since he is only one person) on the suggestion. I also doubt it'd be kind to let Inca work alone at the suggestions made. As I said: a diversity of opinions is needed. The staff members could participate at that.

    I also suggest that a new forum section for that is included, in which a bunch of suggestions is posted by the ombudsman as a thread in regular periods of time. (Once a week, once a month) When the thread is created, the (interested) staff, Inca, and even other persons which you think may suit work together at the problems, trying to discuss and to solve them.

    Thoughts?

    #73 DAroo

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    Posted 28 February 2011 - 23:50

    ~Nef, ~C3
    You guys miss the point. Do you afraid changes too? Bunch of people shouldn't be totally controlled by a single man like in the popre. Inca is in the bad mood - he can ban others. Inca is in the good mood - he can nominate some moderator. Don't you think that there is too much Inca? According to the recent events in Egypt - it can't be like that forever..

    Why are we discussing here? Inca was closing all threads like that (criticizing admins or popre) in his forum so this forum is the only place to speak free about populous community. He was deciding that community can't criticize him nor popre. He decided about what we can and what can't discuss about - isn't it madness? Popre is full of sins and this place shows them clearly.. I couldn't even remove that one, silly bug with emoticons in the forum. Is this what we want to have? Service controlled by him?

    Good sides? Ok, there are good sides - popre is still alive, somehow, but it could be way better if Inca wouldn't be egoistic. Inca makes decisions behind your eyes. Before reading this forum you didn't even know how much I wanted to help. And what? Now I have to do everything outside popre and this complicates things both for me and for others. How many decisions have been made without informing community? Too many.

    Now there is another problem. Community is misinformed. Everybody who wants changes is called that he's moaning. They are calling me enemy of popre who has personal conflict with admins and who refused to help when asked about it. Who the hell asked me for a help? I was begging popre, like and idiot, for letting me to do any small change. Good thing is that only free service with democratic and fair rules can stay alive in a longer perspective.

    Nefarius, on 28 February 2011 - 22:37 , said:

    I'm sure Inca is able to admit that he has done mistakes in the past (nobody is perfect), and hence able to apology to you.
    Nah, he would prefer to swallow his trumpet.

    #74 c3_TN

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:00

    Nefarius, on 28 February 2011 - 23:40 , said:

    Quote

    Expanding on it a little, perhaps the best course of action is some sort of ombudsman, that can take complaints and serve as a go between those who wish to express their opinions and the moderators. Of course, you'd have to find someone that's respected by the community, including Flame and Co., but there are probably candidates for that.

    If there was some sort of ombudsman, they could formulate suggestions and ideas for Inca, bringing the suggestions of individuals who could remain annonymous if they prefer to do so.

    Interesting idea. That ombudsman should be able to remain objective, since his tasks would only be to transmit the message in some way, without any partiality. You should pick someone for that job who people actually trust to talk to.

    What'd be the best way to find the person? We could ask around for people which're interested. There should be a couple of persons. Once we gathered several potential candidates, we should create something like a poll to let the community decide. Maybe the poll thread should include someone like an application which includes the reasons why he/she wants to be in that position and what qualities he/she brings.

    There's one thing I disagree on tho: Why should the ombudsman only formulate suggestions for Inca only? I mean, people are for sure gonna be unsatisfied again since they can accuse Inca of working too one sided (which is no wonder, since he is only one person) on the suggestion. I also doubt it'd be kind to let Inca work alone at the suggestions made. As I said: a diversity of opinions is needed. The staff members could participate at that.

    I also suggest that a new forum section for that is included, in which a bunch of suggestions is posted by the ombudsman as a thread in regular periods of time. (Once a week, once a month) When the thread is created, the (interested) staff, Inca, and even other persons which you think may suit work together at the problems, trying to discuss and to solve them.

    Thoughts?

    I think you are correct about the multiple administrators. I just wrote Inca instead of the "Populous Reincarnated Moderation Team" ;-)

    The correct applicant would be:
    1.) Regularly Active
    2.) Patient and Non-biased
    3.) Highly respected in the community
    4.) Ideally not a member of a clan (negotiable, depends which clan, how active, etc)

    I think you're right about the application process. It would need Inca and other moderator's approval, a fairly neutral location site (I would nominate Populous ManaSource since it is frequented by both parties), and general acceptance among detractors (Flame, Stephan, Terat0). Once you have those things, and a qualified applicant, you can start acting as an arbiter for disputes, etc.

    Of course the best applicant would be CDPlayer, but he's not active.

    "You guys miss the point. Do you afraid changes too? Bunch of people shouldn't be totally controlled by a single man like in the popre. Inca is in the bad mood - he can ban others. Inca is in the good mood - he can nominate some moderator. Don't you think that there is too much Inca? According to the recent events in Egypt - it can't be like that forever.."

    DAroo, and Ombudsman or an arbiter would be a neutral 3rd party. This individual would be trusted by both those who enjoy PopRe and support it, and by those who have complaints. The person would serve as a go-between, if both sides were agreement. They would help ensure individuals are NOT banned for posting complaints or other information and suggestions about the MM.
    Do you understand what we're suggesting? This would be a neutral 3rd party, voted democratically.

    #75 DAroo

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:05

    Well if you want to discuss compromises I'm opened but I doubt Inca is ready to leave his power behind. Also you should know that most players don't really care about popre/popms/admins/community/whatever. They only want to play populous no matter who and how is controlling them.

    #76 c3_TN

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:08

    DAroo, on 01 March 2011 - 00:05 , said:

    Well if you want to discuss compromises I'm opened but I doubt Inca is ready to leave his power behind.

    Inca's suggesting changes/help with his site. We're suggesting a change that can ensure any complaints are:

    1.) Documented
    2.) Taken Seriously
    3.) Resolved to the best of all party's ability

    #77 IncaWarrior

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:13

    Quote

    Inca is in the bad mood - he can ban others. Inca is in the good mood - he can nominate some moderator.
    So can any of the other mods...

    DAroo: The plan was to update the whole forum, so updating a rarely used page seemed low priority.

    "Democratic" rules makes no sense in a situation like this. Are you going to elect a new person to code the website every week? Remember when I had elections for new mod candidates? It brought up a good candidate Smudgey, but then Hard-Ware managed to get all the new players to vote for him. As a solution (for clans) a random selection of players is picked to vote on a clan. I have absolutely no involvement in the clan system any more, it's all automated or run by users. Would that work for picking mods? It's never been suggested so I don't know.
    Looks more like you just don't like change that isn't what you say.

    For C3's idea, an anonymous "comment box" could fulfill that duty - unless communication was required back. Then the issue still remains: People who want to abuse the system. It's usually the people banned that complain the mods are too harsh on them and things should be more lenient. The majority of people never run into the rules so they won't voice an opinion.

    #78 DAroo

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:14

    Great, so you are going to create a system of suggestions in which Inca is the bored king who decides what should be done and what is stupid... Already he has to do it by himself so it's a huge favour for him.

    IncaWarrior, on 01 March 2011 - 00:13 , said:

    "Democratic" rules makes no sense in a situation like this.
    Are you sure? Look at this forum, it's already the place where is discussed future of populous community. All opinions are expressed with respect, we are discussing in democratic way. Try to do same in popre forum... Was it really so hard to make this place? As you can see it's possible to gather smart guys and discuss about serious problems.

    #79 c3_TN

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:18

    DAroo, on 01 March 2011 - 00:14 , said:

    Great, so you are going to create a system of suggestions in which Inca is the bored king who decides what should be done and what is stupid... Already he has to do it by himself so it's a huge favour for him.

    DAroo, you are completely missing the point. Inca wouldn't have any "power" or control over this person. It'd be a completely neutral 3rd party who would help mediate and solve complaints. The person would need to be approved BOTH by Inca and the PopRe moderators and ALSO the PopRe community, and ALSO by individuals such as yourself, Flame, Terat0, Stephan, and others who disagree with Inca.

    It would work if Inca agreed to work with the person, and the Populous Community agreed to take their serious complaints to that person.

    #80 Nefarius

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    Posted 01 March 2011 - 00:27

    ^ Indeed, and the suggestions coming from the community should be solved and discussed by several people, not Inca only.

    Quote

    I mean, people are for sure gonna be unsatisfied again since they can accuse Inca of working too one sided (which is no wonder, since he is only one person) on the suggestion. I also doubt it'd be kind to let Inca work alone at the suggestions made. As I said: a diversity of opinions is needed. The staff members could participate at that.

    I also suggest that a new forum section for that is included, in which a bunch of suggestions is posted by the ombudsman as a thread in regular periods of time. (Once a week, once a month) When the thread is created, the (interested) staff, Inca, and even other persons which you think may suit work together at the problems, trying to discuss and to solve them.






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